Rebecca Brown's Interview with
Nancy Pickard & Lynn Lott
Authors of Seven Steps on the Writer's Path
A Journey from Frustration to Fulfillment
Rebecca:
How did you two, separated by a thousand miles & writing genres, get together to write a book about writing?
Nancy:
We met at a writers conference, appropriately enough. It was the “Bare Bones” writers retreat sponsored by the San Diego chapter of Sisters in Crime & held in Julian, California. Lynn & I were both presenters. I saw her do her stuff & thought she was really good; she saw me give a workshop on the Seven Steps, & she thought they rang true psychologically, & that she might be able to use them even with her non-writer clients. She asked my permission to do that, I said, sure, & later, when she told me how well it had worked, I said, “You wanna do a book together on the Seven Steps?”
Lynn:
The same way you & I are getting together for this Interview e-mail, bless its little heart. Yes, we did meet in Julian at a writers conference, & yes, we did admire each other's work. & we seemed to enjoy each other's company as we chatted about this & that in our cozy cabin. But mostly, it was e-mail that brought us together. We wrote back & forth for almost a year, sending each other thoughts & ideas. Then the moment of truth came & I suggested we meet in Florida to see if we really had a book in us. The rest, as they say, is history.
Rebecca:
Nancy, as a writer of fiction, what was the strangest thing you noticed about writing a factual book?
Nancy:
I don't know about “strange,” but I can tell you it was so much easier than fiction! Not that it didn't have its hard patches, because it did, but overall, I thought that writing it was a breeze compared to writing a novel. Possibly, writing a novel would seem easier than non-fiction for a non-fiction writer. Maybe it's only a matter of getting to do something new for a change. But it seemed so much easier not to have to make up everything out of whole cloth.
The best part, however, was getting to work with a partner & share the responsibility. It didn't all rest on my shoulders, as my novels do, & that was bliss. I felt utterly confident in Lynn's ability to organize a non-fiction book. I knew I was working with a master, & so I relaxed (at least I think I did) & let her guide me in all the things she knew how to do. I would never have written this book without her. If I had tried, it would have been ten pages long!
Rebecca:
Lynn, you have co-authored many previous non-fiction books, so writing with someone else is not new to you. However, was there anything different about getting together with a novelist?
Lynn:
Let's put it this way -- I can't imagine ever doing it any other way in the future. Every writing partnership has a unique story, & each book is like a different child. But writing with a novelist is a way to turn information into poetry & a page turner. What could be better? If I had another fifty years, I might end up where Nancy started off 25 years ago. So partnering with someone who has her skills is the greatest gift a writer could have. & Nancy isn't any novelist. She has an understanding of human behavior & relationships that exceeds most. That made me doubly blessed.
Rebecca:
Why seven? How did you distill it down to just those few?
Nancy:
This is going to seem as if I'm avoiding the question, but the truth is that it's seven steps because...it's seven steps. It can't be twenty, & it can't be four, because...it isn't 20 & it isn't 4. It's seven. We never said, “Let's have seven steps. Seven sells.” It was nothing like that. The steps announced themselves one at a time, on their own, & when they were done, & we had them written down, there were seven of them.
Lynn:
Nancy discovered or uncovered the steps. They rang true to me, but like anything that makes sense, I have to process the information with myself, my friends, family, clients & anyone who will help to make sure the information truly works. No matter where I tried out the information, it continued to hold up. We may have changed the names of some of the steps, & we might even have changed the order of one or two (I can't remember anymore), but the steps were the steps.
Rebecca:
Did you understand each other from the start, or were there language & process clashes you had to smooth out?
Nancy:
We “clicked” from the start, & immediately recognized a sister in one another, but then we had to actually get to know each other! We committed to this project -- at widely different times, as Lynn would tell you—when we hardly really knew each other at all.
We trusted our instincts about that, & they were right. But we certainly did have to learn, or even create a language & process. I'd say that I learned Lynn's psychological language & process, & her non-fiction book-writing process, & she learned my creative process. She can tell you about that last part, so I'll tell you about what I learned from her.
It has been incredibly valuable to me & I think it made all the difference in our ability to make the transition from being two women who sensed they might be able to write to together, to being two women who actually did successfully write together.
Right at the start, & because I was interested, Lynn taught me her two principle techniques for working with her clients: childhood memory work & what she calls “Top Card.” I glommed on to both of those techniques like a beginning swimmer grabs a life ring. I felt, immediately, that they held the key to a successful relationship of any kind, including the writing kind.
From the very first time we worked together, we used those incredible techniques to help us over any rough patches. I remember the first time: we had worked together for a weekend in the Florida Keys, & it had gone well, but as Lynn drove me north to the Miami airport, I felt we were hitting a point of disagreement that could, if denied & ignored, eventually cause trouble. So I asked her, “Would this be the right time to do childhood memory work?” She said it certainly would, & so that's what we did. It got us -- probably within l0 minutes -- to the roots of our disagreement & then showed us the way through & out of it. I thought it was a near miracle. We used that & “Top Card” -- constantly, both to work out kinks between us & to get a deeper understanding of our material & our process. I swear, now I don't know how any partners of any kind can change & grow without having access to those techniques. If I ever get married again, I'm teaching him “Top Card” & childhood memory work!
I also learned Lynn's way of starting a book, which I just love. The way it works is that one of us opens our laptop & asks the other questions. As that one gives her answers, the first one types everything down. By the time we've traded back & forth many times, we have tons of material. It's a really fresh & fun way of working together, full of synergy & magic, & it feels altogether too easy to be work!
Lynn:
I knew I had a soul sister in Nancy from the moment I watched her work & chatted with her later. But it took us time to find the way to work together that fit both of our styles. When we started, we had so many other commitments, that it was easy to put the project on the back burner. But once we got serious, I had to learn the true meaning of patience.
My previous style was to create a plan, pick a task, find a deadline, & then reconvene with finished work. Ha! That went out the window quickly. Why? Because Nancy's bar for excellence is extremely high, & the creative process has a life of its own. I would send Nancy information I considered almost final draft quality, & she would send it back unrecognizable. It was a shock at first, & a bit ego-crushing, but over the months, our two voices became one, until there were times when I was sure what I read was Nancy's work, & she would insist it was mine.
I know I have become a better writer working with Nancy. I never seem to have a shortage of ideas & examples, but Nancy helped me see that they needed to be translated with a dose of magic to truly sing! & Nancy has the magic.
Rebecca:
The first step on a writer's path, is all about recognizing how unhappiness affects our writing life. What did some of the authors you interviewed have to say about that unhappiness?
Nancy:
My take on it was that they either identified with it or denied it completely, with no in between. But we didn't believe the denying ones, & we had good reason not to, because in several cases we had seen their process up close & we knew how unhappy they were sometimes, even if they had managed to forget it.
We also saw there was definitely a continuum, ranging from writers who are so skilled they are like surfers, to ones who always feel as if they're about to drown. The surfers feel that unhappiness as a wave of itchiness & restlessness that they have learned how to ride, so they let it build, wait for the crest & then enjoy the exhilarating ride. At the other end are writers like me who seem to have to get really miserable in order to propel themselves into writing. I wish I were a surfer dude!
Lynn:
In the beginning, Nancy & I created a questionnaire & then interviewed writers by email or phone. I was constantly surprised at the similarity of the answers to most of the questions, which I took as another indicator that the steps resonated.
Many authors thought unhappiness was a condition, like writer's block, that they had to endure for years. Others let unhappiness stop them for extremely long periods of time. I found the level of discouragement shocking. I think some authors thought they had a disease they called depression that was stopping them from being creative. Mostly, it seemed that unrealistic expectations were the biggest culprit. Many authors thought others could write all the time with little or no stress & they were the only ones who were stuck.
Very few authors realized that unhappiness was an excellent jumping off point. Why get on the trail when you're thrilled? Writing is hard work, & it takes a big dose of unhappiness to motivate the desire to change & grow. But most were relieved to know that being unhappy meant they were already on the path, & that the condition had a beginning, a middle & an end.
Rebecca:
What do you see each of you gave the other that you didn't have before? Nancy to Lynn, & Lynn to Nancy.
Nancy:
Lynn gave me the most valuable techniques for maintaining & nurturing relationships that I have ever encountered. I will be forever grateful. She gave me my launch into non-fiction books, for which I am also really grateful. She gave me her friendship. If you know her at all, you know that is a huge thing to have, because she is endlessly generous & supportive, & an inspiration to people like me who work inefficiently in fits & starts. She gave me the opportunity to spend a lot of time in Florida, which I love. She gave me her wisdom, & she gave me a larger view of life than I had before. I like her a lot! Oh, & by the way, she gave me this book, because it wouldn't have been possible for me to do it alone or with anybody else. & did I mention she's a fabulous cook?
Lynn:
Nancy gave me one of the neatest book writing experiences I've ever had. It was fun, exciting & made me grow. I also learned to be a nicer person hanging out with Nancy, as she is so kind & tactful, I couldn't help but pick up a few pointers. Nancy also gave me a book that I enjoy reading over & over & find inspiration from when I feel stuck. I can't say this about all my books. Many of them were written at a certain time in my life, when the content was extremely important to me. I'm glad I wrote the information down for others to have. On this book, I'm glad we wrote the information down for us to have along with everyone else.
Nancy also gave me her friendship. She is wise & encouraging & comforting, & there were & are many times when I am relieved to know she's there.
The writing process we developed is also exciting & translates to many other projects. This is the process where one of us asks a question & the other types as fast as we can to get down all the thoughts from our co-author. Then we switch. Not only is this fun & interesting, but it also is a way to create lots of exciting research for later use.
Rebecca:
What was the funniest misunderstanding you two had?
Nancy:
Lynn, was it when I didn't bring my computer?
Lynn:
Yup, it was the first time we got together & Nancy didn't bring a computer. As we've said, I've written with many other authors, & never, never, never, had this happened before. I was so flabbergasted I could hardly speak, & I had no idea how we could work together. I was suspicious, too, thinking maybe Nancy really didn't want to work on this book, after all. I couldn't have been more wrong. Out of this opportunity, we came up with the question/answer format that we've both described, which has been so exciting & creative.
Nancy:
What Lynn had no way of knowing was that when I write fiction I do my first drafts in longhand in notebooks. So I came prepared with a legal pad & a pen! She nearly fainted. Our brilliant compromise was to trade her laptop back & forth while we did our question/answer sessions with each other. It turned out we didn't need two computers. But we didn't need my legal pad, either!
Rebecca:
What are “Top Cards”?
Nancy:
Take it away, Lynn!
Lynn:
Top Cards are a “knee-jerk” stress reaction that we use to protect ourselves & that can get us in big trouble where we end up dealing with exactly the thing we most want to avoid. Understanding about top cards is as helpful as understanding about math & science & language. There's a lot about them in our book in Step Five -- Letting Go. But they are so interesting & helpful that Nancy & I are teaming up once again, & adding T.J. MacGregor to the mix, to write our next book which will be all about Top Card. We're looking for volunteers to answer questions, so send your email address to me if you're game & want to be part of our research.
Nancy:
Just to give you examples: I have what is called a Comfort Top Card, which means that when I'm stressed, my knee-jerk reaction would be to retreat into my shell like a turtle or snap at people. Lynn has what is called a Pleasing Top Card, which means that when something triggers her stress point, she can lose sight of what she wants & start trying to guess & give what other people want, which can be disastrous. Having those Top Cards does not mean we have to act on them. Knowing about them helps us spot those moments when we might give in to them, & gives us other choices about how to be, with the result that our relationships & the rest of our lives are happier & more productive. The other two Top Cards are called Control & Superiority.
Rebecca:
Can you give us a glimpse of the miracles that happen when writers let go?
Nancy:
I'll give you the most dramatic example from my own life. After a long period of being stuck on a book I finally, in desperation, let go, gave up, surrendered. That night I had a dream in which I felt the emotions my heroine would feel right at the point at which the book was stuck. The next morning I woke up & realized with wonder what had happened in the night. I suspected -- but was terrified of hoping -- that my block was broken. Within an hour, I felt pulled to my couch. I picked up a notebook & a pen & began to write in longhand. That day I wrote more than 30 pages. I finished the book in about two weeks. It was the beginning of my phase of writing first drafts in longhand.
Lynn:
Everyday I encounter people in my counseling office who have finally let go & found peace of mind, freedom, joy & often, their heart's desire. It all seems impossible to get what you really want by letting go, but over & over, when you give up control & live in the moment, the good things happen in ways you never dreamed possible. We've all heard the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different result. Yet we think our set responses keep us safe & will eventually work. Not true. But letting go requires a leap of faith & a lot of courage & trust, especially the first time. Once you've let go a few times, you wonder why you ever found it so difficult or waited so long. It's a muscle worth exercising.
Rebecca:
What would you wish readers take away from your Seven Steps on the Writer's Path?
Nancy:
Encouragement, inspiration, perspective, a feeling of not being so alone, a desire to write.
Lynn:
It's already happening. People who have previewed the book say, “I saw myself on those pages, & the information helped me feel better about myself, smile at myself, & be a better writer.”
Rebecca, thanks for the opportunity to share our book & our thoughts with others. You are a great friend of writers & we are lucky to have you in our lives.
Nancy:
Ditto. Thank you.
Rebecca: Now that you've got an idea of the how & the why of the writing of these authors' book, check out my review of Seven Steps on the Writer's Path & buy yourself a copy of this invaluable writing tool!
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